Fiber VS Copper
Contents
Then the big question: is Fiber better than copper? Well… yes and no. Fiber barely suffers from a few issues if at all. Consider crosstalk when we load a port with white noise. However, you have to remember that it still has a port in it for a copper connection to the streamer. In short: there is still an electrical connection.
Now we took a few measurements and also grabbed a comparison with a good switch: the Negear GS108E. And we see in the first graph measuring low frequency that copper is less noisy than fiber. Right, less…. it’s subtle: but the Netgear just measures better here. Under load, things stay the same. Not entirely surprising, since the Netgear scores very well here and so does fiber.
We briefly grab another switch to make an “external” connection to the Delock converter; the Dlink 1210 which also has SFP slots. We grab the spectral analyzer to make a broader measurement.
We now make a loaded measurement. The blue line is a loaded Netgear 108E. The yellow line is the Delock fiber connection with no load and purple is the Delock loaded. There is only a minimal difference, as you can see. And you can see that Fiber really kills copper in this case. Your author is convinced that this gives the calm presentation when using a fiber connection. And that this is also what makes fiber sound so different….
Listening
Because different it certainly is! Martijn hears DIRECTLY that this is different. What a scary man that is sometimes…. Now your author knows that Martijn is not a fan of fiberglass in a hi-fi system. And again he comes up with the same rant: low stereo image, bit dry…. but very accurate – impressive decay at Talking Heads. However, he doesn’t think the overall picture is his thing. And that is consistent with other demos. :-).
Your author has played with Fiber for a long time. After its ‘discovery‘ over five years back and, I think, some trials before that, it stuck. This is because of the calmness and ‘blackness’ that Fiber can bring. With the right converters and power supplies. That is. It’s a complex puzzle. Everything has to be right to get it really right. In this test we played with standard power supplies. And that just doesn’t work as good. But anyway: we tested everything with standard power supplies, including this one.
However, know that your author recently switched the audio network to copper, because there are developments there too. Now a nice Zyxel managed switch with some tweaks forms the heart of the audio-network. That works even better with the AlphaPC with Jcat XE NIC. We still need to measure these by the way. We didn’t have time for that right now.
Hey, great review very detailed. Back in the late 80’s I worked with Western Digital on the first 100M Ethernet boards for PCs. We had a dial up system that used their boards. Hey it was the beginning of the internet what do you expect.
Back then it was all about common mode noise as the culprit of quality on a network switch or controller. Was wondering why you didn’t do any of that testing on these units?
Your test sets would allow differential and common mode testing.
Thanks,
Gordon
Hey Gordon!
We did do common mode and differential mode noise tests. I think we also mentioned that?
I definately remember dial up… Old enough… :-).
Hi,
I’ve been absorbed by this review and video for several hours! 🙂
I’ve bought a GS108Ev3 today and want to improve its perfomance by upgrading the power supply. Do you recommend a switching or linear power supply and which one(s)?
Thanks!
Thanks! A nice IFI will do the job. The LHY power supplies are also great.
Hi. Thank you for the great review. The link for the Netgear goes to version v3 on Amazon. They don’t seem to have v4 which seems hard to find. Are v3 and v4 comparable? Thank you.
They are pretty much comparable. No problem!
Hello.
Very interesting article.
I tried a different approach for my network connection, the idea was to simplify the network eliminating the switch that was close to my Chord 2GO/2YU streamer but keeping it visible from home network.
I use Roon, and in the past I tried on my MOCK the double network card strategy that you, but also others, suggested: the motherboard RJ45 port was connected to the ISP generic router and a PCI RJ45 card to the streamer. It’s very easy to configure and in my opinion it gave very good sound improvement, but it requires to have the 2 ethernet cards on a different subnet.
That means that the streamer was “isolated” from the home network (on a different subnet so not reachable).
Investigating further, a guy from the Roon community told me it’s possible to keep the streamer on the home subnet using the “ethernet bridge configuration”, but while this can’t be done on ROCK, Linux supports it.
So I spent some hours (I was not familiar with Linux and also didn’t know how to bridge the 2 ethernet cards, so I had to learn), but at the end I’ve been successful.
I also added another thing: the PCI exp card is now an SFP adapter , a very cheap one from Amazon, and also the SFP fiber modules are 2 cheap single-mode devices.
I use a fiber connection between the Roon server and the streamer, then I had to use a TPLink media converter between fiber and streamer, which has been powered with a homemade linear psu based on a modified board I bought on Audiophonics.
The RJ45 adapter from the motherboard is directly connected with a CAT6 cable to the router.
This gave an incredible sound improvement and allowed me to keep the streamer on the home network and use it to stream film soundtracks from my MacBook via airplay. Some weeks of test made me understand that this is just another step to make the system sound better, but there is still some work to do as the harshness is reduced but still there.
Now I’m wondering if it’s better to increase the quality of the devices I’m currently using keeping the same optical/copper configuration or instead install in the Core a high quality double net card like the JCAT XE directly connected to the streamer with high quality network cable obviously using a 5V linear PSU for the card.
Thanks
That is a very decent set-up! 🙂
Hi, thank you very much for all your efforts.
I am interested in purchasing a Netgear GS108E. Actually, I discovered such a item has reached the v4 version. Which version was used in your tests?
Thanks
Hey dax,
Thanks. This was the V4… 🙂
Mooi stukje!
Hebben jullie ook de Dlink DGS108 al eens vergeleken met de Cisco SG110D?
Van beide hebben jullie vgm al eens een review geschreven.
Zelf heb ik de Cisco met Ifi Ipower voeding maar zou graag willen weten of het zich loont om de Dlink te proberen.
Beide zitten in de test.
Mooi stukje!
Hebben jullie ook de Dlink DGS108 al eens vergeleken met de Cisco SG110D?
Van beide hebben jullie vgm al eens een review geschreven.
Zelf heb ik de Cisco met Ifi Ipower voeding maar zou graag willen weten of het zich loont om de Dlink te proberen.
Beide zitten in de test.
Hi Roy. Ik heb jaren met die Cisco gespeeld en vervangen door een DLink DGS108. De Dlink heeft een veel positiever effect. Ik heb er zelf een LHY LPS25VA voeding aan gehangen. Dat maakt ten opzichte van een iFi iPower2 uit, ook hier is het resultaat weer positief. Van harte aanbevolen om de DLink te kopen. Even op de pricewatch van Tweakers kijken waar je hem het goedkoopst kan vinden.
Does a NETGEAR GS108 (GS108-400NAS) work just as good? (not GS108E)
I don’t know. It is a different model. We haven’t tested it. But Netgear is pretty good in general.
Does a NETGEAR GS108 (GS108-400NAS) work just as good? (not GS108E)
I don’t know. It is a different model. We haven’t tested it. But Netgear is pretty good in general.
Hi,
Thanks for the awesome switch test. I acquired an LHY SW-8 switch some weeks before your test. I use it with an R26 DAC and a Mac Mini M1 serving Roon/HQP. It brought great improvements to my system that were consistent with what you described, particularly in Martijn’s separate review of the SW-8: a broader and deeper soundstage, longer reverberations and sense of space, whilst being a more natural sound with less glare. Amazing what a good switch can do.
So just last week based on your test findings & recommendations as an experiment I got a Netgear GS108E switch which I paired with a spare Ifi Power X PS and placed in series with the LHY I.e. Generic router > Netgear GS108E > LHY > R26.
Wow. The soundstage focus tightened considerably with a seemingly quieter background, more detail and improved micro-dynamics, a bit leaner, but still retaining the characteristic LHY natural and easeful sound.
Flicking back to the LHY alone it was warmer and smoother with a more generous if slightly bloomed bass. It took a few minutes to get used to the shift – the two switch combo is definitely more resolving and feels balanced so is staying. Oh, and adding a small grounding tube to the Netgear further relaxed and focussed the sound (doing this with the LHY had a negative effect, perhaps due to its already well sorted power section).
I am constantly amazed how upstream improvements in the digital chain, even seemingly minor ones, can seriously and cumulatively improve a streamer’s & DAC’s performance.
Will try adding FMCs next, further down into the rabbit hole I go! 😅
Keep up the great work chaps.
Jake
Thanks! And happy listening!
Jake, thank you for posting your experience! I was just about ready to pull the trigger on another SW-8. I have one on order, but looking at my network, a few more connections are needed. I was lucky to stumble upon this switch shootout and just ordered the Netgear router based upon your experience, to use with the SW-8. We are running similar setups, so I am hoping my experience is similar to yours. Thanks again! You saved me $500+. 😉
Welcome!
Hi,
Thanks for the awesome switch test. I acquired an LHY SW-8 switch some weeks before your test. I use it with an R26 DAC and a Mac Mini M1 serving Roon/HQP. It brought great improvements to my system that were consistent with what you described, particularly in Martijn’s separate review of the SW-8: a broader and deeper soundstage, longer reverberations and sense of space, whilst being a more natural sound with less glare. Amazing what a good switch can do.
So just last week based on your test findings & recommendations as an experiment I got a Netgear GS108E switch which I paired with a spare Ifi Power X PS and placed in series with the LHY I.e. Generic router > Netgear GS108E > LHY > R26.
Wow. The soundstage focus tightened considerably with a seemingly quieter background, more detail and improved micro-dynamics, a bit leaner, but still retaining the characteristic LHY natural and easeful sound.
Flicking back to the LHY alone it was warmer and smoother with a more generous if slightly bloomed bass. It took a few minutes to get used to the shift – the two switch combo is definitely more resolving and feels balanced so is staying. Oh, and adding a small grounding tube to the Netgear further relaxed and focussed the sound (doing this with the LHY had a negative effect, perhaps due to its already well sorted power section).
I am constantly amazed how upstream improvements in the digital chain, even seemingly minor ones, can seriously and cumulatively improve a streamer’s & DAC’s performance.
Will try adding FMCs next, further down into the rabbit hole I go!
Keep up the great work chaps.
Jake
Thanks! And happy listening!
Jake, thank you for posting your experience! I was just about ready to pull the trigger on another SW-8. I have one on order, but looking at my network, a few more connections are needed. I was lucky to stumble upon this switch shootout and just ordered the Netgear router based upon your experience, to use with the SW-8. We are running similar setups, so I am hoping my experience is similar to yours. Thanks again! You saved me $500+. 😉
Welcome!
On fiber – I have a similar finding. Quieter but also a bit of a hard edge to the music that is uncomfortable (much like the digital glare of old). This is improved with a better fiber converter on the streamer end (Sonore Optical Module Deluxe) – but even improved, that hardness was still there. I have to think it is a noise problem of converting from optical back to copper. My testing was with a Bricasti M3 DAC with network renderer. Copper with a passive noise isolator (Network Acoustics ENO) was less quiet (blackground) than the fiber but didn’t have the hard edge.
That said, when I upgraded to a Bricasti M21 DAC with the same network rendering technology as the M3, I could use the fiber with the Sonore module and didn’t have the hard edge. Must be better noise isolation in the M21, although the network card is supposed to be same between the two.
Hi Bill,
Thank you for sharing your insights. Fiber is something very different and the effects also differ per system. I like the quietness a lot. But there is a trade off… Martijn does not really like it.
On fiber – I have a similar finding. Quieter but also a bit of a hard edge to the music that is uncomfortable (much like the digital glare of old). This is improved with a better fiber converter on the streamer end (Sonore Optical Module Deluxe) – but even improved, that hardness was still there. I have to think it is a noise problem of converting from optical back to copper. My testing was with a Bricasti M3 DAC with network renderer. Copper with a passive noise isolator (Network Acoustics ENO) was less quiet (blackground) than the fiber but didn’t have the hard edge.
That said, when I upgraded to a Bricasti M21 DAC with the same network rendering technology as the M3, I could use the fiber with the Sonore module and didn’t have the hard edge. Must be better noise isolation in the M21, although the network card is supposed to be same between the two.
Hi Bill,
Thank you for sharing your insights. Fiber is something very different and the effects also differ per system. I like the quietness a lot. But there is a trade off… Martijn does not really like it.
Thanks Jaap,
I await the next testing with considerable interest. The what is happening and then the why is it happening (if it exists) fundamental. For me there are definite listening benefits with audio rated quality switches, cables and accessories. Those with data centre enterprise networking experience say no way.
John
I have worked in IT for 40 years (since before it was called IT!). When it comes to network switches used for audio purposes, it’s actually a disadvantage to work in IT as our world is all about digital of course. The impace of a switch in an audio chain is to kill (analogue) RFI/EMI noise. No 1s and 0s are harmed or enhanced by a network switch and super-accuracy clocks in switches can’t affect sound quality because of the way ethernet works (in data frames, with error correction, asynchronously). So the data centre guys are right when they look at this through a digital lens but wrong in the world of music reproduction.
In our world, a switch is there (and there must be maybe 0.5 to 1m cable to the streamer not next to the router) to kill noise – or at least to minimise it. The better a switch is at killing noise, the more effective it is for audio purposes. All an “audiophile” switch can do is to kill noise more effectively than a basic switch: a well-designed case to stop noise getting into the switch, and quietened cicruitry so the switch itself doesn’t become part of the problem.
Thanks Jaap,
I await the next testing with considerable interest. The what is happening and then the why is it happening (if it exists) fundamental. For me there are definite listening benefits with audio rated quality switches, cables and accessories. Those with data centre enterprise networking experience say no way.
John
I have worked in IT for 40 years (since before it was called IT!). When it comes to network switches used for audio purposes, it’s actually a disadvantage to work in IT as our world is all about digital of course. The impace of a switch in an audio chain is to kill (analogue) RFI/EMI noise. No 1s and 0s are harmed or enhanced by a network switch and super-accuracy clocks in switches can’t affect sound quality because of the way ethernet works (in data frames, with error correction, asynchronously). So the data centre guys are right when they look at this through a digital lens but wrong in the world of music reproduction.
In our world, a switch is there (and there must be maybe 0.5 to 1m cable to the streamer not next to the router) to kill noise – or at least to minimise it. The better a switch is at killing noise, the more effective it is for audio purposes. All an “audiophile” switch can do is to kill noise more effectively than a basic switch: a well-designed case to stop noise getting into the switch, and quietened cicruitry so the switch itself doesn’t become part of the problem.
I have received and read to post re the testing of various Ethernet switches. The comments were useful and interesting. The switches tested all seem to be at the lower end of the what is available especially for audio networking purposes.
It would be of more interest to me and probably other readers of the Forum if you undertook a similar evaluation of some higher quality more expensive audio network switches. I suggest the following Brands as examples. There are others
Melco
SOtM
Paul Pang dual or quad
Silent Angel Bonn Pro
Waversa
Renolabs
John
Hi John,
If you type ‘switch’ in the search box, you will find a test which involves some of those brands.
Dear John,
De idea of this test was to give more insight in why switches matter. That is why we had some cheap ones, and some more expensive ones. It gave us a good idea of what really matters. We will do a test with more expensive ones and compare it to a ‘stock’ one with a good power supply. The question then is: are they really better? An if yes… why?
Hi
Does anyone compare the Paul pang quad switch and the LHY SW-8 please or/and the ediscreation please ?
Thanks for your answer
Have a great day,
What would you like to know?
I have received and read to post re the testing of various Ethernet switches. The comments were useful and interesting. The switches tested all seem to be at the lower end of the what is available especially for audio networking purposes.
It would be of more interest to me and probably other readers of the Forum if you undertook a similar evaluation of some higher quality more expensive audio network switches. I suggest the following Brands as examples. There are others
Melco
SOtM
Paul Pang dual or quad
Silent Angel Bonn Pro
Waversa
Renolabs
John
Hi John,
If you type ‘switch’ in the search box, you will find a test which involves some of those brands.
Dear John,
De idea of this test was to give more insight in why switches matter. That is why we had some cheap ones, and some more expensive ones. It gave us a good idea of what really matters. We will do a test with more expensive ones and compare it to a ‘stock’ one with a good power supply. The question then is: are they really better? An if yes… why?
Hi
Does anyone compare the Paul pang quad switch and the LHY SW-8 please or/and the ediscreation please ?
Thanks for your answer
Have a great day,
What would you like to know?